Difference between revisions of "The real brain does not create virtual consciousness, real consciousness creates the virtual brain"

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Q : I have two questions to You (or maybe I should say problems I do not agree with). First - You said that only something that is conscious can learn - from my view and view of mathematicians / informaticians who work in the field of artificial intelligence that is definitely not correct. Simple example: the chess program. It is learning during each match. Do You really think that programs are unable to learn? Or maybe I misunderstood that part.

Tom: I agree with you completely, lots of different algorithms can learn. A computer based neural net can learn, even voice activated devices can learn individual voices. That does not mean these algorithms are conscious. Being able to learn is only one attribute of consciousness. A deterministic algorithm where every possibility is fixed can never be conscious. Consciousness cannot exist without free will and free will cannot exist without consciousness. Logically they are necessary conditions for each other. See the chapter entitled “Mind, Brain, Body” in the middle of Book 2 (Discovery) of the MBT trilogy for the logical derivation of free will. (See MBT google books in the list of affiliated sites in the left hand margin of this page for free access to these books on the Internet.)

Q : Second - the consciousness/brain problem. If there were no brains Everything [in your theory] would be fine to me ;) But there is such a thing as brain and it is VERY DEEPLY correlated to consciousness and senses/experiences/memory. For me the existence of brain is the most important fact against non-materialism or that the consciousness is something primordial. I feel that consciousness cannot be described in categories of matter, atoms or just Newtonian physics. But - You can't deny that brain can be described like that. And that experiences/memory/sense of the world we have are bound with electro-chemical activity of brain. Why is that? Why something like brain activity (world of matter) causes changes in my consciousness (nonmaterial?) and (?) vice versa. That is duality problem. Even that I feel that consciousness is something that differs from matter, there is a lot of evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain: 1. It (consciousness) develops gradually as the brain develops (animal evolution) - it is an assumption but I thing most agree with it 2. It ceases during dreamless sleep 3. It ceases during most comas 4. It is affected - even changed significantly - by damage to the brain If consciousness is the fundamental element of Universe, why there is a brain and its evolution. Why we aren't just some kind of dots in space or something nonmaterial, even in world that seems materialistic. I feel that my consciousness is in brain. Maybe if I had OBE or similar experience that would change, but I'm not sure of that. The fact is that there is a brain which is so correlated with consciousness that it is most likely that consciousness is the product of brain. If You'll find some time to answer to me on that problem I would be very thankful :)

Tom: Email limits replies to short answers but here is the logical progression. To better understand the first several steps below watch the Hawaii Seminar 14 part video on YouTube ( http://www.youtube.com/user/twcjr44 ) and read the “gems from the forum” starting with 1 ( http://www.my-big-toe.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75&Itemid=82 )

1. We live in a virtual reality (PMR). This virtual reality (VR) is nothing but information – much like a multiplayer VR computer game. There is no physical reality, and no physical brain – both are virtual – just information. The larger consciousness system is the only thing that is fundamental – all else is virtual.

2. This virtual reality (our universe) has evolved (big digital bang began execution) according to a rule set (science uncovers rule set facts and logical consequences).

3. If you are a player (an individuated unit of consciousness) in this virtual reality, you must abide by the rule-set

4. Your PMR body reflects the constraints of the rule-set because it has evolved as part of the evolution of the VR according to the rule-set

5. In PMR you cannot jump 20 feet high because the rule-set doesn’t support it (we have not, under the rule-set (physics and biology), evolved that capability)

6. In PMR you cannot learn advanced calculus and differential equations from scratch in ten minutes because the rule-set doesn’t support it.

7. In PMR you can learn calculus, play the violin, get angry, appreciate art, music, and beauty, love, hate, scheme, dream, laugh, plan, eat, invent & use computers, make love and have babies, because the rule-set does support it.

8. You are consciousness however everything you experience as a character within PMR must be supported by the rule-set.

9. Consciousness leads, and the body follows – if it can, according to the rule-set (e.g., the placebo effect)

10. If you as a conscious being playing the part of Suzie Q in the PMR virtual reality game develop (within the game) a great capacity for empathy, then that portion of the PMR virtual brain allowing empathy must change to support and reflect what you have developed.

11. If someone cuts that part of your brain away, and no other part of your brain can support the emotion of empathy, you can no longer display the quality of great empathy because the rule-set, as it is reflected by your body within the PMT VR, can no longer support you feeling empathy any more than it can support you jumping 20 ft high.

12. You cannot live beyond the evolved “physical” capability of your brain otherwise you would violate the rule-set, so if your brain is damaged, your potential in PMR is damaged.

13. Any ability or quality, positive or negative that you, as consciousness, develop within the PMR VR game must be supportable by a PMR brain or you can’t develop this ability or quality in the PMR VR.

14. Any ability or quality, positive or negative that you, as consciousness playing a PMR character, develop within the PMR VR game that is supported by the PMR rule-set, creates a virtual brain that will support it (causes the virtual brain of your virtual character to change in order to support that new function. Like earning “hit points” or spells in a VR computer game enhances your characters virtual brain.

15. The brain, created by consciousness, represents the accomplishments earned, within the constraints of, the PMR rule-set.

Q : Thank You for Your reply Tom, it is very comprehensive. Your theory looks really attractive to me. I'd love to see some evidence and mathematical basis to it, but it probably cannot be done.


1. Our mathematics represents the logic of quantity and is very good at describing the mechanics of PMR and the PMR rule-set (not as good at describing biology, terrible at describing individual behavior).

2. Digital science is not so much about quantity as it is about process.

3. Relationship is not so much about quantity or process as it is about the subjective perception of intent.

4. Reality is digital. Only consciousness itself is fundamental; all experiential reality frames are virtual. The purpose of existence (consciousness evolution) is most effectively satisfied through relationship.

5. Math, then, is a weak player in describing the larger reality composed mainly of individuated units of consciousness interacting within a digital consciousness system in pursuit of lower entropy (positive evolution).


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